{"id":4124,"date":"2013-04-22T08:35:31","date_gmt":"2013-04-22T08:35:31","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/?p=4124"},"modified":"2013-04-26T06:27:41","modified_gmt":"2013-04-26T06:27:41","slug":"the-problem-with-dave-part-1","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/carls-thoughts\/the-problem-with-dave-part-1\/","title":{"rendered":"The problem with Dave &#8211; Part 1"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>I\u2019ve been thinking a great deal over the years about the way we communicate the \u201cgood news\u201d about Jesus to men.\u00a0 We wonder why we see so few men becoming followers of Jesus but fail to effectively and analytically look at the message we are communicating, the way we are communicating it and who we are communicating it too.<\/p>\n<p>So, here are a few blog posts over a few weeks about telling ordinary men about Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>I strongly believe that the church is failing to operate behind enemy lines.\u00a0 As far as I can see, the UK church is rarely in the front line trenches of proclamation and hardly ever behind enemy lines. Check this very simple diagram out:-<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2013\/04\/scale.jpg\"><img data-attachment-id=\"4139\" data-permalink=\"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/carls-thoughts\/the-problem-with-dave-part-1\/attachment\/scale\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2013\/04\/scale.jpg?fit=713%2C177&amp;ssl=1\" data-orig-size=\"713,177\" data-comments-opened=\"1\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"scale\" data-image-description=\"\" data-image-caption=\"\" data-medium-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2013\/04\/scale.jpg?fit=300%2C74&amp;ssl=1\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2013\/04\/scale.jpg?fit=713%2C177&amp;ssl=1\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"alignnone  wp-image-4139\" alt=\"scale\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2013\/04\/scale.jpg?resize=570%2C142\" width=\"570\" height=\"142\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2013\/04\/scale.jpg?w=713&amp;ssl=1 713w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2013\/04\/scale.jpg?resize=300%2C74&amp;ssl=1 300w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 570px) 100vw, 570px\" data-recalc-dims=\"1\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n<p>Dave (mark 1) is not a Christian.\u00a0 He doesn\u2019t give a stuff about what you believe unless he\u2019s had a couple of beers.\u00a0 He is after-all, like most men, an expert on everything already. Sure he likes to row with you in the pub but for the most part he doesn&#8217;t really care about church stuff and its not at the top of his list of hot topics to discuss with his mates.\u00a0 Working class Dave wrote the church off years ago.<\/p>\n<p>So who is Dave?\u00a0 Well, Dave drinks beer, loves football (West Ham of course) and thinks that Jeremy Clarkson (if you don&#8217;t know who he is, you need to get out more) should be Prime Minister.\u00a0 He has a skilled manual labour job, only goes to church when someone gets married, drops dead or chucks water on their kids head before having a few beers and a roast dinner.\u00a0 He doesn&#8217;t care about atheism, creationism or any other ism.\u00a0 He\u2019s a bloke.<\/p>\n<p>Then there&#8217;s Dave (mark 2).\u00a0 Dave is a full on fired up follower of Jesus.\u00a0 He prays, tithes, has a quiet time and feels guilty when he doesn&#8217;t. He goes to the mid-week prayer meeting and a home group.\u00a0 He smiles at the little kids in the church and helps out sometimes at cr\u00e8che.\u00a0 He happily sits through long sermons and sings emotional songs to a man.\u00a0 He has embraced <em>churchianity<\/em> and christianity.\u00a0 He is Dave redeemed, tamed and cleaned up.\u00a0 (More on the \u201ctaming of the Dave\u201d in future weeks).<\/p>\n<p>There is however a massive problem.\u00a0 Most church evangelism starts where the church is on the diagram.\u00a0 Way too far along the scale of belief.\u00a0 To go on an Alpha course, you need to be prepared to sit and have a meal with a stranger, over a structured 10 week course, attend a Holy Spirit weekend and share your feelings.\u00a0 <a title=\"Alpha website\" href=\"http:\/\/alpha.org\" target=\"_blank\">Alpha<\/a> is amazing as is <a title=\"CE website\" href=\"http:\/\/www.christianityexplored.org\" target=\"_blank\">Christianity Explored<\/a>.\u00a0 But to attend you have to be prepared to want the conversation and be fairly committed to seeing it through.\u00a0 You\u2019ve also got to be able to work through some real church sub-culture stuff and get the jargon. (More on this issue in future editions as well).\u00a0 He\u2019s also got to filter a message that tells him that he&#8217;s needy and needs a saviour.<\/p>\n<p>Basically, it&#8217;s not going to happen is it?\u00a0 Or if it does its rare.\u00a0 Sure, someone will write to me and tell me how Dave came through but its not happening in massive numbers is it.<\/p>\n<p>The church needs to learn how to operate in the realm and world of Dave (mark 1) and that friends, is behind enemy lines.\u00a0 At <a title=\"CVM website\" href=\"http:\/\/cvm.org.uk\" target=\"_blank\">CVM<\/a> we view it as a massive victory if we move a bloke along the scale of belief.\u00a0 Get a debate going with Dave that&#8217;s not beer fueled and you&#8217;ve won a skirmish behind the lines.\u00a0 He accepts an offer of prayer and you\u2019ve neutralised a defensive shield.\u00a0 Get him to your church blokes clay pigeon shoot and bonfire and you\u2019ve taken an enemy position out.<\/p>\n<p>Firstly of course you\u2019ve got to get behind enemy lines and to do that you\u2019ve actually got to make some mates who aren&#8217;t followers of Jesus. I kid you not when I tell you that I know evangelists who haven&#8217;t got any mates who aren&#8217;t followers of Jesus. So lets get out there.<\/p>\n<p>Future blogs will cover:- <em>jargon<\/em>, <em>what is good news to a man<\/em>, <em>church for men<\/em> and more.<\/p>\n<p>As a final note, you\u2019ll realise that this blog is about actually telling people about Jesus. \u00a0 The UK church is swamped just now with loads of political and social justice activity.\u00a0 I\u2019m deeply involved in some of this activity.\u00a0 Its all good stuff but I appeal to you that we mustn&#8217;t lose proclamation.\u00a0 As far as I\u2019m concerned, the biggest injustice of all is that <strong>people die without knowing Jesus<\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><em>This blog was first published on <a title=\"carlbeech.com\" href=\"http:\/\/carlbeech.com\" target=\"_blank\">carlbeech.com<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n<div class=\"linkwithin_hook\" id=\"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/carls-thoughts\/the-problem-with-dave-part-1\/\"><\/div><script>\n<!-- \/\/LinkWithinCodeStart\nvar linkwithin_site_id = 897245;\nvar linkwithin_div_class = \"linkwithin_hook\";\n\/\/LinkWithinCodeEnd -->\n<\/script>\n<script src=\"http:\/\/www.linkwithin.com\/widget.js\"><\/script>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.linkwithin.com\/\"><img src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.linkwithin.com\/pixel.png?w=750\" alt=\"Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...\" style=\"border: 0\" data-recalc-dims=\"1\" \/><\/a>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>I\u2019ve been thinking a great deal over the years about the way we communicate the \u201cgood news\u201d about Jesus to men.\u00a0 We wonder why we see so few men becoming followers of Jesus but fail to effectively and analytically look at the message we are communicating, the way we are communicating it and who we [&hellip;]<\/p>\n<script>\n<!-- \/\/LinkWithinCodeStart\nvar linkwithin_site_id = 897245;\nvar linkwithin_div_class = \"linkwithin_hook\";\n\/\/LinkWithinCodeEnd -->\n<\/script>\n<script src=\"http:\/\/www.linkwithin.com\/widget.js\"><\/script>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.linkwithin.com\/\"><img src=\"http:\/\/www.linkwithin.com\/pixel.png\" alt=\"Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...\" style=\"border: 0\" \/><\/a>","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":4138,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_links_to":"","_links_to_target":""},"categories":[3],"tags":[39,642,643,644,68,645,646],"aioseo_notices":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2013\/04\/featured.jpg?fit=256%2C135&ssl=1","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p7PoLK-14w","jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":5027,"url":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/50plus\/communicating\/","url_meta":{"origin":4124,"position":0},"title":"Communicating","date":"20 February 2014","format":false,"excerpt":"Are we communicating and speaking the same language on a day to day basis to the people we meet? A good starting point for thinking about spreading the gospel. With a friend a few years ago we stared to have a coffee and share about how to operate an iPaq.\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;50 Plus&quot;","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":2387,"url":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/thoughts-from-the-cvm-team\/amazing-grace\/","url_meta":{"origin":4124,"position":1},"title":"Amazing Grace","date":"17 March 2012","format":false,"excerpt":"David Murrow (author of 'Why Men Hate Going To Church') has discovered a church that has taken on the challenge of appealing to men with amazing results. Grace United Methodist learned how to grow again - without abandoning its traditions. You won't find a drum set in this church -\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Team CVM&quot;","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2011\/10\/team-CVM-blog-640x360.jpg?fit=640%2C360&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":36,"url":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/carls-thoughts\/real-men-dont-do-church-part-one\/","url_meta":{"origin":4124,"position":2},"title":"Real Men Don&#039;t Do Church &#8211; Part One","date":"7 August 2009","format":false,"excerpt":"Men believe themselves to be self-sufficient, all-capable and in no need of a crutch, so why be a Christian? \u00a0That\u2019s for wimps and women isn\u2019t it? \u00a0And nothing at all happens in church that is of any relevance to men, does it? \u00a0And lets face it, frankly a church meeting\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Carl Beech&quot;","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":1017,"url":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/thoughts-from-the-cvm-team\/whats-lausanne\/","url_meta":{"origin":4124,"position":3},"title":"What&#8217;s &#8220;Lausanne&#8221;?","date":"18 October 2010","format":false,"excerpt":"\"Lausanne\" or the Lausanne Movement is a worldwide movement that mobilizes evangelical leaders to collaborate for world evangelization. Last week, Carl Beech headed off to Cape Town.","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Team CVM&quot;","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":2634,"url":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/50plus\/core-activities\/","url_meta":{"origin":4124,"position":4},"title":"Core Activities","date":"6 July 2012","format":false,"excerpt":"50 plus blog is produced by a team of 10 writers, it's a weekly blog that is published every Thursday. Eddie James co-ordinates the blog and is looking for a few more writers - interested? We are encouraging the churches involved in level 1 and 2 events to broaden their\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;50 Plus&quot;","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2014\/10\/CVM-50plus-blog-640x360.jpg?fit=640%2C360&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":3315,"url":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/friends-of-cvm\/man-up-speak\/","url_meta":{"origin":4124,"position":5},"title":"Man Up: Speak!","date":"13 November 2012","format":false,"excerpt":"Thousands of years ago, a man and his wife were walking through a garden. During this stroll, the wife was suddenly approached by a stranger who began to tempt her with supreme knowledge and god-like abilities. She knew it was wrong; he knew it was wrong. But she did it\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Friends of CVM&quot;","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2014\/12\/friends-blog-640x360.jpg?fit=640%2C360&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]}],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4124"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/4"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=4124"}],"version-history":[{"count":7,"href":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4124\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":4140,"href":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4124\/revisions\/4140"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/4138"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=4124"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=4124"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.cvm.org.uk\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=4124"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}